They Want to Ban a Book about Book Banning

[Ned]

A Conroe, Texas parent this fall has called for the school district, in which his daughter is in High School, to ban Ray Bradbury's literary classic, "Fahrenheit 451." The school district is considering the ban.

Here's a video on it. News Report on Banning Fahrenheit 451 (http://www.glumbert.com/media/bookban)

The video poster notes, "The logic used here is simply devastating." B)

[Kairho]

I hate video news when it is the only source ... whatever happened to good ol' prose?

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kairho @ Nov 5 2006, 05:05 PM) 42046</div>
I hate video news when it is the only source ... whatever happened to good ol' prose?
[/b]
Then here's another source for you, a written source. Houston Communities Newspapers (http://www.hcnonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17270600&BRD=1574&PAG=461&dept_id=532215&rfi=6). Not exactly a well written piece, but it's another source.

[pezmanffx]

That is such a great book too. Lets just sterialize the entire education sysem so that no one ever has an origional thought.

[clarkef]

Book banning is simply wrong. I have no problem with children being given an alternative assignment if a book violates there beliefs. But to prevent others from reading the book is simply wrong.

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clarkef @ Nov 10 2006, 05:54 PM) 42535</div>
Book banning is simply wrong. I have no problem with children being given an alternative assignment if a book violates there beliefs. But to prevent others from reading the book is simply wrong.
[/b]
Clarke, I don't think that I agree with the idea "that children should be given an alternate assignment if a book violates their beliefs." First, I don't see how this book violates anyone's beliefs merely by expressing ideas with which one doesn't agree.

Please consider this, if children are allowed to never read anything which challenges them, their beliefs and ideas, and their preconceived notions, how is the child's mind to learn and grow? Certainly by high school, our young adults need to be challenged, so they can better understand the world around them, in my opinion. I don't believe it is in society's or the teens' best interests, to let them have the power to exclusively decide what they should or should not learn or read.

If their beliefs are true and strong, the challenge will make them stronger.

The objection to the book was, that it contained "discussion of being drunk, smoking cigarettes, violence, "dirty talk," references to the Bible and using God's name in vain." Oh my, welcome to the real world! While the book may be offensive to Diana, I don't see where it violates her beliefs. Am I to believe that at Caney Creek High School none of the students drink, smoke, see violence on TV, on the street, on computers, in games, etc., never hear references to the Bible that aren't exactly positive, and never hear God's name taken in vain? If someone takes God's name in vain at the school, why isn't Diana in a church school? Taking this petty stance, of the need for a book to have total cleanliness, to be worthy to be read, means that virtually no novel, no poem, no art, biography, or history book ever written, with pith and depth and intelligence, can be read.

Furthermore, as an example of the logical fallacy of their position, the Bible, which this teen and her father cling to, has much more drunkeness, sex, violence and taking God's name in vain, than almost every book I have ever read, including "Fahrenheit 451." Consider the story of Lot, of Sodom and Gomorrah, as a perfect example of this. If she can't read "Fahrenheit 451," I submit she can't read the Bible.

As principal of Diana Verm's school I would have found nothing in her objections that would move me to allow her to miss the lessons of "Fahrenheit 451."

Clarke, you're a very clear thinker, and I would love to hear your ideas about this.

[clarkef]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clarkef @ Nov 10 2006, 05:54 PM) 42535</div>
Clarke, I don't think that I agree with the idea "that children should be given an alternate assignment if a book violates their beliefs." First, I don't see how this book violates anyone's beliefs merely by expressing ideas with which one doesn't agree.

Really? :D
Example 1: Danish cartoons -->Mohammed ---> Riots.
Example 2: Salmon Rushdie -->Satanic Verse --> Death Threats


Please consider this, if children are allowed to never read anything which challenges them, their beliefs and ideas, and their preconceived notions, how is the child's mind to learn and grow? Certainly by high school, our young adults need to be challenged, so they can better understand the world around them, in my opinion. I don't believe it is in society's or the teens' best interests, to let them have the power to exclusively decide what they should or should not learn or read.
I agree I think that people are better served with more information than less. But...


If their beliefs are true and strong, the challenge will make them stronger.
Its not for society to forcibly challenge my beliefs or yours.

The objection to the book was, that it contained "discussion of being drunk, smoking cigarettes, violence, "dirty talk," references to the Bible and using God's name in vain." Oh my, welcome to the real world! While the book may be offensive to Diana, I don't see where it violates her beliefs. Am I to believe that at Caney Creek High School none of the students drink, smoke, see violence on TV, on the street, on computers, in games, etc., never hear references to the Bible that aren't exactly positive, and never hear God's name taken in vain? If someone takes God's name in vain at the school, why isn't Diana in a church school? Taking this petty stance, of the need for a book to have total cleanliness, to be worthy to be read, means that virtually no novel, no poem, no art, biography, or history book ever written, with pith and depth and intelligence, can be read.

Furthermore, as an example of the logical fallacy of their position, the Bible, which this teen and her father cling to, has much more drunkeness, sex, violence and taking God's name in vain, than almost every book I have ever read, including "Fahrenheit 451." Consider the story of Lot, of Sodom and Gomorrah, as a perfect example of this. If she can't read "Fahrenheit 451," I submit she can't read the Bible.

Ned, Do you see how you have set yourself up as the interpreter of the tenets of her version of Christianity and the judge of its reasonabless. Does that trouble you? It scare the living crap out of me that a third party, particularly a government official is going to be judging my religion. And as a rule, the person judging is probably going to be flatly wrong.

For example, the suggestion that the Bible cannot be read under Diana's theology is false and demonstrably so. The Bible does not take the Lord's name in vain in contravention to the Commandments, unlike many novels. Many Christians take that commandment very seriously and do not wish to be associated with anything that does. My orthodox friends take that so seriously that they won't even spell G-d, for fear of the paper might be stepped on, torn, dirtied, etc.

[clarkef]

Part 2

Society has a very legitimate interest in educating children. But parents also have an equally legitimate interest in the religious education of their children. Thus the tension. Fortunately, cool heads can prevails. For example, one determining factor is whether the class is a required class or an elective. Religious beliefs get greater deference in a required class than an elective.

But what is critical is that we do not base policy decisions based upon some gov't agents prejudice against a particular belief.

[Ned]

Thanks Clarke. I knew you come through with logic and reason.

Actually, I don't understand how coming in contact with a book which discusses smoking, or coming in contact with someone who smokes, violates her religious or otherwise beliefs that smoking is sinful. I'll count that as being somehow short sighted on my part.

I also agree with your statement that I've interpreted her religious beliefs. I have for the sake of this discussion, and I certainly don't want the government involved in religion in anyway. That's why I don't think there should be anything involving religion in the public schools.

My continuing problem with this is, in my opinion, she and her father have insinuated religion into the local public high school. If her family has a religious problem with the school because parts of the curriculum are not matching up to her religious beliefs, then I think she should opt out of public school, and go to a religious based school in line with her religion. I think we are allowing chaos to rein in public school if we allow each family to interpret the lessons and materials which form the curriculum.

I look forward to your comments on this. I have a feeling you won't agree and want to have further understanding of your point of view. Thanks.

[clarkef]

Thanks Clarke. I knew you come through with logic and reason.

Thanks. You too.

Actually, I don't understand how coming in contact with a book which discusses smoking, or coming in contact with someone who smokes, violates her religious or otherwise beliefs that smoking is sinful. I'll count that as being somehow short sighted on my part.
That's the beauty of America. We don't have to understand or agree with the tenets of others religion. For what its worth, the religious theory relates to the concept of purity and holiness. In ancient times the parable of the good samaritan illustrates that. The priest refused to touch the sick man as he was unclean. In modern times, think Amish. They avoid contact with sinful things to remain holy unto the Lord.

I also agree with your statement that I've interpreted her religious beliefs. I have for the sake of this discussion, and I certainly don't want the government involved in religion in anyway. That's why I don't think there should be anything involving religion in the public schools.

Impossible. Religion pervades american life to such a degree that we don't even think about it. Ancient Greek theology names the heavens. Judeo-Christian religion influences law and language. Consider the following Hollywood titles, Armegheddon, Apocalypse Now, Bablyon 5, anything dealing with the Devil, 7th Heaven, Touched by Angel, Angels in the Outfield, and the list continues ad infinitum.

My continuing problem with this is, in my opinion, she and her father have insinuated religion into the local public high school. I would disagree. If she wanted creation taught instead of evolution, I might be inclined to agree. However, to the extent that she and her father are making choices for themselves and only themselves, then I would opine that the school is forcing religion on the student. Specifically,the school is attempting to subvert her religious belief that she should not be putting unclean, ungodly material into her mind.

The logical error being committed by the school district is that somehow they can divorce themselves from religion. But peoples beliefs, actions, paradigms, etc. are all filtered through their religious belief, even if their religious beliefs deny God.

If her family has a religious problem with the school because parts of the curriculum are not matching up to her religious beliefs, then I think she should opt out of public school, and go to a religious based school in line with her religion. In other words, put up and shut up. No thanks. She and her family are American citizens entitled to the use of the public facilities for which they pay taxes which includes the public schools. They are not second class citizens. They are not trying to make anyone else conform to their religious standards. In America, we value religion, it is enshrined in the very first Amendment, and thus reasonable accomodations must be made. More on that in the next section.

I think we are allowing chaos to rein in public school if we allow each family to interpret the lessons and materials which form the curriculum. That's a red herring. The magic term is reasonable accomodation. Can the major goals of the class be accomplished by giving the student a different text to read which does not violate his or her sincerely held religious beliefs. If so, then they should be allowed the alternative reading material. If not, that the student is SOL. Neither scenario presents chaos to the school.

[Ned]

Clarke, thanks for the insight. Your points are excellent and I generally agree. I do think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I still have a problem with individualized curricula on required subjects for each student. If you're going to permit one, we must permit all.

I agree that everyone should be allowed access to public school. My problem is what is reasonable accomodation to changes in the curriculum.

Thanks again for the excellent discussion.

[Inconvenience]

Jesus would slap these people for being so stupid.

I used to live near Conroe while stationed in the Marines- it's full of the worst types of overstuffed Christian "wanna bees". The kind that want books that insult the Bible banned, but have never even read their own Bible from cover to cover.

Especially funny when you think that Middle Age era Christian and Muslim scribes preserved much of the knowledge of ancient pagan civilizations.

[clarkef]

Jesus would slap these people for being so stupid. LOL

Especially funny when you think that Middle Age era Christian and Muslim scribes preserved much of the knowledge of ancient pagan civilizations.
Is that really true. I am not familiar with that position. Please elaborate.

[Inconvenience]

Sorry I was away for a month.

Yes, Christian and Muslim scribes were amoung the very few people who could write at all during those times. And so were the only ones to translate ancient knowledge from ancient Greek into Latin or Arabic.

The Arabs had conquored territory all the way to Spain, and so of course came in contact with a huge number of ancient greek texts.

One of the biggest things the Muslims preserved were mathmatics.

This is all from memory, witch is not one of my strengths, but I'm sure if you wikkepaedia'd or googled it or what have you, you'd find most information out there supports these statements.