Things I don't understand

[Annette]

As some already know in addition to being a travel agent I also operate bus tours a few times a year that go across the border. I'm friendly with one or two other tour operators in town that do the same (and not so friendly with a few others). Recently our closest land port of entry to the US instituted new procedures that require tour operators to submit a manifest 48 hours prior to arrival containing information such as legal names of the passengers, country of citizenship, and the type of ID they will be using to prove citizenship. Here are the things I don't understand:

1) Lots of passengers have been complaining about this. They see absolutely no reason why this information has to be collected and feel the US government has "no right" to be asking for this information. My response to that is that the passenger has "no right" to enter the US, the US government has every right to request information related to identity and citizenship. These are the same people that complain bitterly about the "possibility" of needing a passport to enter the US, again saying that the US has "no right" to impose such a restriction on them. Uh huh.

2) In response to the complaints from passengers many of the tour operators are NOT collecting and submitting the requested information. This just stuns me. I'll note that of the 8 or so tour operators I can think of only 1 actually has any experience with any other form of group travel (I see her at the trade shows from time to time). Apparently most of the other tour operators are just submitting a list with names and birthdates to the border and letting everything get sorted out there. Personally I think they should turn away tour operators that refuse to cooperate. No wonder passengers complain if the operators turn around and say Nah it's no big deal we'll just skip that part...

3) On the list of information we're required to submit is this: "Identity Document(s) e.g. passport, birth certificate, drivers license". All we need to provide them with is a listing of what TYPE of ID the person will be using, not the actual number itself. Okay, doesn't make much sense to me but what makes LESS sense is the poor way in which they've worded the requirement. Not to belittle my fellow tour operators but frankly some of them are not too smart and I KNOW they're reading that and saying oh good it doesn't say "birth certificate AND driver's license, they're listed separately so they can use either..." Which would almost be a reasonable assumption as the first 2 prove citizenship however a driver's license does NOT.

I just wish they'd been a little clearer with their letter. Most of the people are here are fairly travel savvy but you would not believe some of the things people try to use for ID at the border. I've seen people try to use everything from Canadian Tire and The Bay credit cards, Petro Canada discount cards, Zeller's (now HBC) reward cards... figuring that hey it's Canadian and it has my name on it so it should work right?



So for those of you who are crossing the border, please keep these things in mind and try to have your ID and documentation ready for inspection when you get there. These Customs and Border Protection officers have to put up with a lot of strange things!

[Ned]

Annette, welcome to the "Home of the Brave, and the Land of the Free" where the government is nuts. Instructions for Canadian visitors to the US while apparently confusing are no worse than for US citizens returning to the US.Recently our closest land port of entry to the US instituted new procedures that require tour operators to submit a manifest 48 hours prior to arrival containing information such as legal names of the passengers, country of citizenship, and the type of ID they will be using to prove citizenship.[/b]While I don't know about today's requirements for tour bus entry to Canada, I am familiar with the rules in past years. A number of years ago, I went on many bus trips from the US into Quebec province, taking school age kids, where I was the head chaperone. While we didn't have to submit paperwork in advance, when we got to the border, we had to submit a list of every person in the bus, their home address, their citizenship, their birthdate, if they were under 18, we had to tell them if we had a notorized letter of temporary guardianship, what identification they were using, and what citizenship identification they were using. We rarely had to actually show the guardianship letter or the ID or citizenship identification, we just had to submit the list. It seems like that's what the US is asking now.

Anytime you enter a foreign country, I think that county has the right to ask and receive each person's legal name, citizenship and know what citizenship ID will be used to prove citizenship and what ID they will be using. Hey, the have the right to see the ID and the proof of citizenship.

I think the Canadians complaining about this are just like the people in the US complaining about crossing the border in the other direction. It's getting more expensive and harder to cross this border. For many, in their minds, crossing the border between the US and Canada, in either direction, is just like going to another state, or another province. Many forget that the border is between two different countries. Except for Quebec we generally speak a common language, and many have common backgrounds. For the most part we have similar sensibilities about life. Our governments are very different. Go to a city like Toronto and you feel like you're in the US. I'm sure that citizens of Ottawa would feel home in most NE cities in the US. We have many more similarities than differences, and that makes crossing that border for many, a very strange experience.

I think they want the list of information to help speed you through the border. I don't know that they're organized well enough, that the list will actually help that, but the idea isn't bad. I sincerely hope that if a tour operator doesn't submit the list, or submits an incomplete list, that the bus isn't refused crossing the border, but I would also hope that for those who submit the list, and submit a complete list, that it helps them cross the border more quickly. If that would be true, I would think that complaints would cease, or at least dimish.

I would hope that Canadian Tour Operators would be clear to its customers what the requirements are, even if the US government in a letter to them is not, concerning crossing the border.

Originally posted by These are the requirements according to the US State Department
Entry of Citizens of Canada
Citizens of Canada are exempt from the visa and passport requirement of Immigration and Nationality Act (section 212(a)(7).) To enter the United States, a Canadian citizen must be able to establish both identity and citizenship. Documents that may establish citizenship are: Birth Certificate
Citizenship Certificate
Passport
Although a CBP officer may accept an oral declaration of citizenship, it is recommended that a Canadian citizen carry a document that establishes citizenship. Under current procedures, all travelers may be required to present photo-identification. Personally I think that's pretty clear and easy to transmit in that form to customers.

When I travel out of my country, the US, to Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, the Caribbean, or Central and South America, or anywhere for that matter, I just take my passport. You can't go wrong taking a passport. I also make sure that my passport won't be expiring within 6 months of the time I plan to return home. I recommend the same to everyone.

[bodega]

If those who were complaining were flying into the US, I doubt they would be saying anything. I agree with Ned about the attitudes of those who drive across international borders think it should be like driving from state to state or province to province.

The agency I work with is part of a larger company that does ski packages. They do several college ski clubs bus trips to Whistler and despite all the advance information about what is needed and the issue of DUI's with getting into Canada, there is a least one, but usually 2 or 3 in the crowd that 'forget' to provide all the correct information. This forgetfulness keeps the bus, with all passengers on board, sitting at the border for several hours until Canadian immigration clears everyone for entry.

[weblet]

This forgetfulness keeps the bus, with all passengers on board, sitting at the border for several hours until Canadian immigration clears everyone for entry.[/b]

Rather than focusing on the fact that everyone has to provide this info and "how unfair" it is, this quote should be put IN BOLD AND IN CAPS with the border requirements. Replace 'Canadian' with 'American' when going the other way... ;)

[bodega]

We are talking about college students :P Interesting that one of the college ski groups comes from one of the most highly rated in the nation, yet last year they were the ones who caused the most problems <_< You can advise, put everything in bold print, but you can bet there will still be at least 1 who will screw things up for the rest.

[weblet]

You can advise, put everything in bold print, but you can bet there will still be at least 1 who will screw things up for the rest.[/b]

Oh yeah, I know. It's going to go in one ear and out the other with some people no matter what you do. But at least you could deflect the grumbling from how inconvenient having to have these documents is to giving pointed stares at the offender!

There's some self-satisfaction in putting a piece of paper in front of someone and saying "See, I told you so!" :lol:

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(weblet @ Oct 27 2006, 12:40 PM) 41232</div>
...There's some self-satisfaction in putting a piece of paper in front of someone and saying "See, I told you so!" :lol:
[/b]
But how good will it be for future business. They are customers after all.

[weblet]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ned @ Oct 27 2006, 02:05 PM) 41241</div>
But how good will it be for future business. They are customers after all.
[/b]

Do I want future business from someone who doesn't listen to me? Considering who is likely to get the blame?

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(weblet @ Oct 27 2006, 02:16 PM) 41244</div>
Do I want future business from someone who doesn't listen to me? Considering who is likely to get the blame?
[/b]
I have seen public chastising of even jackasses, for being a jackass, sometimes backfire against the best of people. My experience has shown there are better ways to accomplish the same thing. Plus, I'll bet on a bus of college skiers they'll figure out who the jackass is pretty fast.