Expressing frustration with the TSA

[jsurmacz]

A man gets detained at the airport for a derogatory mark about the head of the TSA written on a plastic bag. Did the TSA go overboard on this one? Share your thoughts.

‘Idiot’ barb gets passenger detained

A Wisconsin man who wrote "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on a plastic bag containing toiletries said he was detained at an airport security checkpoint for about 25 minutes before authorities concluded the statement was not a threat. (CNN)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/28/idiot.baggie/index.html

[AaronK]

I believe its been said before, never argue with someone carrying a gun and a badge.

This was the wrong place to make such a statement.

[jfrenaye]

Agreed---as much as you may detest the police, fire, ambulance, TSA, park rangers, or the mall security guard....they have the authority to do stuff and they will simply because they can!

[Jahosacat]

I agree - wrong place and time to make a comment. He must have left his common sense at home in his other suit. There are a lot better places to voice disagreement with a policy than going thru security. Those people could really have messed up his trip.....

[tdew]

Just stupid! He got the attention he desired though.

[Ned]

We are certainly all agreed that he was foolish, and could have had many more problems than just being detained for a short while.

At the same time Tdew is also correct. He got the attention he wanted and now probably thousands, and eventually perhaps millions of people are talking about the incident, and probably most agreeing about most of his negative comments about TSA. Hopefully, but I doubt it, TSA is listening to the talk, and will shape up. I'm not holding my breath.

[mercwyn]

I'm afraid I'm feeling a bit contrary today and must disagree with the notion that just because someone has a badge that one must kowtow to him or her. I realize that by not kowtowing to them I may face some unpleasant hassles however it doesn't make it right. Clearly no law was broken and there really wasn't any reason to detain him or even argue with him. Yes, he showed poor judgment, just like the TSA employee and supervisor. To think that having a marked baggie that says "Ken Hawley is an idiot" could be construed as being a threat is simply amazing to me. I'm afraid that from my perspective this another example of how the TSA is confused as to what they should be looking for and dealing with.

Thanks for listening and now you can feel free to disagree with me. :D

[BYOFT]

Actually, Mercwyn, your post reminded me of that incident with the AA pilot down in Brazil, not long after 9/11. Remember him? Brazil stiffened their entry and security requirements as a response to the US. The pilot made an obscene gesture, and got in a lot of trouble.

[rayman46]

What happened to free speech! The person had every right to write what he did. He did not threaten in any way. What's wrong with you people?

[bodega]

mercwyn, I had the same thoughts when I read the original post. We do live in a free country, where freedom of speech is guaranteed. With that said, it doesn't mean that you will not get harrassed by officals when you are in their face with your statements and they have other people's safety to be concerned about. Now, how he was treated would be more of an issue, if they acted incorrectly.

I guess having raised teenagers where they cross 'that line' all the time(like daily, hourly, by the minute<_<) I think the man's statement on a plastic bag was very juvenile. We are all frustrated in the security line, but so far, all my flights have arrived safely and for now, I will deal with it...unless I get unreasonably harrassed, then look out B)

[marielmsheen]

I repeat....what bothers me most are the loonies!
What this guy thought he would accomplish is beyond me.
I am with the majority of responders....STUPID thing to do.

[JulieMcMurry]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rayman46 @ Sep 29 2006, 11:16 AM) 38144</div>
What happened to free speech! The person had every right to write what he did. He did not threaten in any way. What's wrong with you people?
[/b]


I agree that we have "free speech" in this country; however it comes to common sence and learning how to just govern ourselves....in ALL our actions. My teenager, several years ago, threw out the comment"hey, we live in a free country....I want my FREEDOM to do what I want, etc" Well with freedom must come self-government. And with free speech must come the same...knowing when to keep quiet. We in this country have become way to "free" with much of our lives.....actions, language, etc. It's a matter of learning self control.

There's much in life we may not enjoy or agree with....and having to put up with a few inconveniences such as placing small amounts of toiletries in baggies is really "small potatoes" when you look at the whole picture of life.

Like I used to advise my daughter....."just get some grit in your life! learn to bear things."
.....nuff said (and I'll get off my soap box ;) ;)

[mercwyn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bodega @ Sep 29 2006, 12:16 PM) 38145</div>
mercwyn, I had the same thoughts when I read the original post. We do live in a free country, where freedom of speech is guaranteed. With that said, it doesn't mean that you will not get harrassed by officals when you are in their face with your statements and they have other people's safety to be concerned about. Now, how he was treated would be more of an issue, if they acted incorrectly.

I guess having raised teenagers where they cross 'that line' all the time(like daily, hourly, by the minute<_<) I think the man's statement on a plastic bag was very juvenile. We are all frustrated in the security line, but so far, all my flights have arrived safely and for now, I will deal with it...unless I get unreasonably harrassed, then look out B)
[/b]

I guess the question becomes at what point does harassment become unreasonable harassment? While I will agree what Mr. Bird did was juvenile I don't see where it warranted for the TSA to delay him 25 minutes and call the sheriff in on it. I guess I have a trouble seeing where making a comment that something or someone is stupid warrants the time of two TSA employees and a sheriff deputy.

To me the issues here are fairly straight forward and have less to do with free speech, although I do think that is an issue and more to do with how this was handled. In essence the message here is that you have to watch what you say, even if it doesn't relate to safety or is a silly innocuous comment or the TSA may have you detained or arrested. I have no problem with the TSA coming down hard on someone joking about a gun or bomb or hijacking but to harass someone because he says that your boss is stupid is a bit much.

I think that the supervisor overreacted and I'm sure that Mr. Bird, who was in the verbal combat mode, egged the supervisor on. Had the supervisor come over, looked at the baggie, verified that it was safe and sent him on his way, this would have been a non-issue since Mr. Bird would have been denied the chance to become combative. I am not excusing Mr. Bird's behavour in anyway however this should have been defused early on and not escalated.

[rayman46]

Be very careful what is being said here. IT CAN BE REPORTED. You are being watched. This is for your own security . Ater 9-11 the world changed. Be careful what you say. You can be taken away in the dead of night. Do not criticize!

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rayman46 @ Sep 30 2006, 11:10 AM) 38212</div>
Be very careful what is being said here. IT CAN BE REPORTED. You are being watched. This is for your own security . Ater 9-11 the world changed. Be careful what you say. You can be taken away in the dead of night. Do not criticize!
[/b]
Senator J. William Fulbright said, "The citizen who criticizes his country is paying it an implied tribute." He was quite right about that. B)

[bodega]

The Senator was right! When my husband's nephew came home from his tour of duty(he was on the first boat to assist with the Cole when it was bombed) he was very upset with all of us and our comments about The Commander and Chief(as he was instructed to call him). I reminded him that he had been fighting for our right to say those things. Sometimes we do forget how lucky we really are.

[rayman46]

SO, do I take it that KIP HAWLEY is an IDIOT is OK to say or write? I also know a soldier now who thinks the present commander and chief is an idiot. It's our right to criticize. Some TSA are like GESTAPO. I'm glad the gentleman wrote that on the bag. It shows that it doesn't take long to lose freedoms. What do dictators use as a need to take away freedoms - security. What amazes me is the people who let them get away with this excuse. There were some people who were foolish [or stupid as some people would say ] not to follow the nazis because they were the law and had guns. I'M glad we have foolish or stupid people like this.

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rayman46 @ Sep 30 2006, 01:12 PM) 38224</div>
SO, do I take it that KIP HAWLEY is an IDIOT is OK to say or write? I also know a soldier now who thinks the present commander and chief is an idiot. It's our right to criticize. Some TSA are like GESTAPO. I'm glad the gentleman wrote that on the bag. It shows that it doesn't take long to lose freedoms. What do dictators use as a need to take away freedoms - security. What amazes me is the people who let them get away with this excuse. There were some people who were foolish [or stupid as some people would say ] not to follow the nazis because they were the law and had guns. I'M glad we have foolish or stupid people like this.
[/b]
Before going on my own little diatribe, I'd like to say that soldiers have taken an oath, a special oath, and while serving in our armed forces, do not have the right to publically criticize the President, in my opinion. That would be contrary to the good order and discipline necessary to maintain our armed forces. It's part of being a soldier.

That being said, Rayman, of course it's ok to say and write it as a civilian US citizen, but in my opinion, it's also foolish to do so in a TSA security line where the message will only be sent to low level TSA personnel, and a few supervisors, who can make one's trip more difficult or impossible. It's just not the time or place to protest when you're trying to travel from one place to another, nor the right audience for the protest.

Protest in front of TSA headquarters in Washington, or in front of the Dept. of Homeland Security. Send letters to the columnists you hope will take up the cause of criticizing TSA. Get in front of TV cameras, if possible. Send letters to the editor of newspapers. Contact Senators and Representatives. These, I believe will be more profitable than writing a phrase on a baggie when you need to get through the line.

I think it's going too far to say some in the TSA are like Gestapo. I think it's way over the top to call them Nazis, or liken a protest against TSA to protesting against the Nazis. The Bush Administration may be a pretty bad bunch, but as someone who lost many relatives to the Nazis, I couldn't say that about him. When we exaggerate that far to make a point, we loose credibility.

We need TSA to do a far better job than they do now. We need their personnel to be decently trained which they are not now. We need them to understand that they are serving us not ordering us. We need them to have rules and regulations and methods that actually make us safer without giving in to the terrorists, which giving away our rights and dignity does. We need TSA to act wisely. TSA has decided that giving up part of the American dream and our inalienable rights will make us safer. Not only don't I think it has made us safer, it's given aid and comfort to our enemies. Calling them (TSA) Nazis, however, or writing a five word rip of the head of TSA on a baggie, will not accomplish those goals, in my opinion, and in fact makes it harder to changes these conditions and problems for the better.

[BPoland]

Well said, as always, Ned!

[deangreenhoe]

It's just not the time or place to protest when you're trying to travel from one place to another, nor the right audience for the protest.

Protest in front of TSA headquarters in Washington, or in front of the Dept. of Homeland Security. Send letters to the columnists you hope will take up the cause of criticizing TSA. Get in front of TV cameras, if possible. Send letters to the editor of newspapers. Contact Senators and Representatives. These, I believe will be more profitable than writing a phrase on a baggie when you need to get through the line.
[/b]

Yep. That pretty much sums it up for me. The system is overtaxed enough without having to deal with some yahoo deciding to make a political statement in the security line. I may adamantly defend free speech, but if someone's exercising of such makes me late for my plane, I'm going to be wanting to put duct tape over their mouth. :lol:

[tdew]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(deangreenhoe @ Oct 1 2006, 07:27 AM) 38278</div>
Yep. That pretty much sums it up for me. The system is overtaxed enough without having to deal with some yahoo deciding to make a political statement in the security line. I may adamantly defend free speech, but if someone's exercising of such makes me late for my plane, I'm going to be wanting to put duct tape over their mouth. :lol:
[/b]

That reminded me of the protester who tied up morning rush hour traffic on the George Washington Bridge a few years ago. He probably didn't get the sympathy and support he was looking for from the drivers who were on their way to work...

as everyone has already said, an appropriate time and place need to be kept in mind.

[Carchar]

Yes, we should all be good little obedient government children and be neither seen nor heard when we don't like something that is being immorally forced onto us...

[tdew]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Carchar @ Oct 1 2006, 01:55 PM) 38304</div>
Yes, we should all be good little obedient government children and be neither seen nor heard when we don't like something that is being immorally forced onto us...
[/b]

No, I think you missed the point. No one is saying that you shouldn't protest something that's wrong, only that there is a time and place for protest. You do yourself or your cause no good if you alienate those you are hoping will support your point of view.

[Carchar]

Ryan Bird made a quiet personal protest. It was the TSA that decided to make a big public to-do about it. In a way, they decided to "terrorize" him as punishment for not conforming to their interpretation of the rules. They could have dealt with the non-threat quietly. TSA loves to flaunt how much power it can wield.

It is questionable how really combative Bird was. The TSA said he was obviously angry. They chose to infer that from the note in the bag. They also told the press he was combative. However, the Sheriff's deputy said there was no indication that Bird was combative.

Unhappily, I feel we are still no more secure today than we were five years ago. In fact, I think we are worse off because more people are angry at the U.S. The present situation is just an excuse to bring out the malevolent dictator in those in charge. :(

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Carchar @ Oct 1 2006, 04:32 PM) 38309</div>
Ryan Bird made a quiet personal protest. It was the TSA that decided to make a big public to-do about it. In a way, they decided to "terrorize" him as punishment for not conforming to their interpretation of the rules. They could have dealt with the non-threat quietly. TSA loves to flaunt how much power it can wield.

It is questionable how really combative Bird was. The TSA said he was obviously angry. They chose to infer that from the note in the bag. They also told the press he was combative. However, the Sheriff's deputy said there was no indication that Bird was combative.

Unhappily, I feel we are still no more secure today than we were five years ago. In fact, I think we are worse off because more people are angry at the U.S. The present situation is just an excuse to bring out the malevolent dictator in those in charge. :(
[/b]
Actually TSA didn't make a big deal about this, it was Ryan Bird making a very noisy protest that made a big deal about this. To start with I believe Bird went into the security line to bait the TSA screener. It worked. She and her supervisor called over the Deputy Sheriff who was within shouting distance of the screening area, who then detained Bird and questioned him. According to the Sheriff's Department he was allowed to leave the area within a few minutes. (I suspect, but can't prove, that the 25 minutes Mr. Bird claims he was detained was a lot less than that, and probably a little more than the 3-5 minutes claimed by the Sheriff's Department.) The whole thing would have ended there, except that Mr. Bird went on to post a detailed description of the incident, according to his vision of it, on FlyerTalk.com, and then did an interview via telephone with the Associated Press.

This was no quiet protest on the part of Bird, in my opinion.

There is no question about how combative Bird was according to TSA. Their spokesperson, Yolanda Clark, said he wasn't particularly combative. Only in the story put out by Bird himself, was their any question about his combativeness.

Bird made a big deal about being held up at security for a short time, which he knew was going to happen, and the media ran with it. This is a non-story story.

I hold to my opinion that there is a time and place for a protest, and in the security line, isn't one of those places, especially because you can so badly affect the lives of other people who just want to get where they're going. A protest in the security line is just not fair to them.

If Mr. Bird was that hot about this issue, where was he when Hawley made the announcement about the lessening of the gel/liquid ban? That would have been the perfect time and place to make his protest and get his media attention. That would have been the perfect time and place to call him an idiot. The time and place of the public announcement were announced the day before, so it would not have been difficult to get to the announcement site.

Geez Carrie, you got me to stand behind those idiots at TSA. I agree that security is no better and have complained about that over and over again, including directly to TSA and through letters to the editor, etc. Nevertheless, this one's on Bird, not TSA.

[deangreenhoe]

Geez Carrie, you got me to stand behind those idiots at TSA. [/b]

Yeah, I thought about that since I'm usually the one defending them when you (et. al.) are being critical. I had to pay Carrie big bucks to set you up. :lol: :lol: :lol:

But we are in complete agreement on this issue. I'm writing it down on my calendar. ;)

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(deangreenhoe @ Oct 1 2006, 06:15 PM) 38325</div>
Yeah, I thought about that since I'm usually the one defending them when you (et. al.) are being critical. I had to pay Carrie big bucks to set you up. :lol: :lol: :lol:

But we are in complete agreement on this issue. I'm writing it down on my calendar. ;)
[/b]
Very sly, very sly. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Carchar]

OK, guys. I stand corrected. I just read the original article and didn't go on Flyer Talk, although I'm a member. There's only so much time I can spend online and I'd rather keep up with Tripso. (I'm also a very slow reader.) :blink: And now I'm taking my "big bucks" and blowing it all on a burger and fries...

[weblet]

OK guys, now get your dander up over this one:

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/...-headlines-oped (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-thorson1005.artoct05,0,777555.column?coll=hc-headlines-oped)

:lol:

[Ned]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(weblet @ Oct 6 2006, 07:27 AM) 38885</div>
OK guys, now get your dander up over this one:

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/...-headlines-oped (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-thorson1005.artoct05,0,777555.column?coll=hc-headlines-oped)

:lol:
[/b]
Just more of the fear mongering that the Federal Government is using to keep the American public's psyche at a unreasonable fever pitch, and justify the pure unadulterated nonsensical positions of the Bush administration. In my opinion, without the Bush administration's scare tactics, the American public would have an evening lower approval rating of the Bush administration's job.

This kind of unreasonable restriction on air travel passengers, where TSA keeps passengers in the dark as to what's permissible and what's not, which keeps "secret" what the rules actually are is either another example of TSA's deliberate outrageous tactics to keep so much fear in the minds and hearts of travelers, so they think TSA is actually doing something positve, or more TSA mismanagement.

Either way, it's about time the American public holds the Bush administration accountable.

(Enough dander W? B) )

[weblet]

And back to the original...

http://www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=37929

Or maybe you'd like to nominate one?

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/08/2...ecurity_awards/ (http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/08/22/stupid_security_awards/)

[tdew]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(weblet @ Oct 6 2006, 07:27 AM) 38885</div>
OK guys, now get your dander up over this one:

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/...-headlines-oped (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-thorson1005.artoct05,0,777555.column?coll=hc-headlines-oped)

:lol:
[/b]
It's just too much!
I very much like the fact that the writer is not carryin on and making outlandish demands, but instead is pointing out something that should be changed.

[amybhole]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(weblet @ Oct 6 2006, 07:27 AM) 38885</div>
OK guys, now get your dander up over this one:

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/...-headlines-oped (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-thorson1005.artoct05,0,777555.column?coll=hc-headlines-oped)

:lol:
[/b]


Hands and feet are also dual-use items, then, when someone makes a fist to punch or kicks in a fight. Are they going to start cutting off our hands and feet next?