Big People

[Exfacto]

I'm a big guy though not fat and airline seats are just painful! I'm 6'6" and 255 pounds. While I'm thin enough to fit in a seat my shoulders are wider than the seat back meaning I take up more seat than I have. I've looked into buying an extra seat for comfort but the airline won't guarantee my non-refundable extra seat will be next to the one I'm sitting in (uughh!). When the person in front of me puts their seat back I'm in agony and arguments have ensued.



Emergency exit row is rarely available. I know this because I've arrived 5 hours before a flight and struck out.



What real world options exist??

[Exfacto]

This appears to be a more difficult question then I imagined.



What I’m looking for is:



· Is using an online ticket agency holding me back from a seat upgrade?

· Should I buy refundable tickets?

· Should I buy tickets from the airline?

· Check in earlier or later?

· Is there something I should be asking for?

· Where’s the best seat to stretch out - over the wing, near the bathroom, in the back.

· Is there an airline (or plane) with a better pitch?



Business class is often too expensive. I travel international as much as domestic and BC can be 5x the price of a coach ticket. Buying an extra seat is cheaper but it only makes sense when the flight is full (or close to full) and that’s when I can’t be guaranteed seats next to each other.



All I'm looking for is another inch or two. A 33" pitch is good.



One thing that didn’t work was the bubble of a 747. Since there’s no overhead storage everyone has their bags with them so there’s no room to stretch.



As an occasional traveler I am aware of things such as pitch, bulkhead (I don’t mind kids) and emergency exit row.





Thanks! JJO

[makfan]

Originally posted by Exfacto
This appears to be a more difficult question then I imagined.*



What I’m looking for is:



· Is using an online ticket agency holding me back from a seat upgrade?

· Should I buy refundable tickets?

· Should I buy tickets from the airline?

· Check in earlier or later?

· Is there something I should be asking for?

· Where’s the best seat to stretch out - over the wing, near the bathroom, in the back.

· Is there an airline (or plane) with a better pitch?







A couple of thoughts. One, check out SeatGuru for tips on choosing the best seats (www.seatguru.com).



Second, the best seats are typically reserved for the most frequent fliers. If you can get lots of miles on the same airline, then you have the best chance to reserve exit rows and bulkheads.



Third, if you buy directly from the airline's web site, you can see their seat maps which can be quite helpful. Check regularly, as seats open up when reservations time out or change.



A tall person such as yourself might not like the bulkhead as the wall in front means nowhere to stretch your feet. I like exit rows when I can get them, but they are very popular. I can only get them on AS or AA, as I have elite status on both.



Good luck....

[silver cloud]

JJO,



I have the opposite problem. I'm only 4'10 and while I have plenty of room in the seat, the headrest hits me at the worst possible angle and throws my head down! Of course, my friends get a good laugh from it. Not to mention that I usually put my carry-on stowed underneath so I can rest my short legs on it!



I feel for you buddy! :wink:

[daawgon]

I just wanted to let Exfacto know that there is an airline that sells different sized seats (small, medium and large). It's the Danish line, [b]Maersk (not sure I have the spelling right?) Yes, they only fly short distances in Europe, but I'm glad to see that someone's thinking about us large guys, and as I think of it, that's a hefty percentage of us Americans!

[Travel2]

I have sold extra seats to clients before, and as long as you can get advanced seat assignments, you can get the seats together. We have never had a problem with it. Just make sure and get the seat assignments and you shouldn't have a problem!

Good Luck

[AaronK]

If I were in a position that I needed two seats, I would probably call the airline directly (or use an agent) rather than book online to make sure they were aware that the two seats were next to each other. Plus, I'm sure that if you show up at the ticket counter to check in, I'm sure the agent will be able to accomodate.



Doesn't seem like a hard one to me.

[Exfacto]

My latest flight was trans-Atlantic on British Airways. They offer an Economy Plus level of seating. Economy Plus has an extra 7� of leg-room (38� pitch) and 1� of extra seat. A round trip in Plus was less than $200 more than economy (I paid $164 more than economy for RT). This class of travel can only be purchased directly through British Airways (not through online agencies). Personally, the extra money was it was very worthwhile to have so much more room.



I just need a domestic carrier to offer the same thing and I’m home free!!



Thanks for your comments!



JJO

[deangreenhoe]

SAS has a similar product...somewhere between business class and coach. It's very popular with my corporate flyers.

[jfrenaye]

This class of travel can only be purchased directly through British Airways



Not true. This is World Traveler Plus and it is only available in certain markets now--coming out to all shortly, and it is available through your travel agent. Since most online sites work off of a coach, business, and first, it is not worth their time to load it in.



Yet another downfall of the web---they don't like us larger travelers!

[jjjenny]

When booking with a travel agent, we can look at seats maps and can tell you right away if there are two seats available right next to each other and assign them at that time. Sometimes, when people are traveling together, I've advised them that I can't get seats next to each other and then we've looked at other flight options. Continental Airlines will assign exit row seats for my clients when I call, but, the person must be qualified to sit there.

[ajaynejr]

Originally posted by Exfacto
I've looked into buying an extra seat for comfort but the airline won't guarantee my non-refundable extra seat will be next to the one I'm sitting in (uughh!).* When the person in front of me puts their seat back I'm in agony and arguments have ensued.

Many airlines do have a specific policy for larger people to buy two seats and according to this policy the two seats will be together even if other passengers have to be moved.



Also, if the person next to you is inconvenienced by your size, he may complain and really his only recourse is to move. (The airline must reseat him or be subject to paying compensation.) If your second seat was some distance away, he goes into that seat and the problem is solved. What exactly happens is up to the flight attendants, you might be the person who has to move. But you may not be deplaned for taking up more than one seat on a full flight if you bought two.



Travel tips:

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm

[mercwyn]

I know United has their economy plus seating on international flights that will gives you extra leg room, as well as the increased odds of not having anyone seat next to you. It's a little more money then the usual economy fares however at 6'2" and 205 pounds I find it's worth it. I'm not certain if they offer it on any domestic service or not.



As someone else pointed out the best seats are held for the best customers which means either you fly the same alliance all the time or that you purchase full fares (rather expensive). Depending on the airline and the reservation system used I know some agents are able to get around these restrictions some of the time.



If you are purchasing two seats due to your size most domestic airlines will arrange to have them together. A good agent can assist you with this and help insure that you get what you pay for.

[deangreenhoe]

If you are purchasing two seats due to your size most domestic airlines will arrange to have them together

And if not, well you can imagine it gets pretty messy splitting you between seats on opposite sides of the plane. :lol:

[Love2snorkel]

:D In my experience, AA has pretty good pitch in coach on those long international flights. Of course if we all flew business or first class....we wouldn't have these problems would we?!?!?!



The Southwest Airlines show 'Airline' recently had an episode where a woman complained to a SW agent that the passenger next to her was spilling over into her seat and that she was extremely uncomfortable during the flight. The agent ended up giving her a 100 dollar travel voucher for her inconvenience. I've been cramped by other passengers. One time it was my fault, as I was in the bookstore and was the last one on the plane so I had to sit in the last available seat. First come, first served, on those flights where you don't get a seat assignment. Luckily for me, my best friend and my husband are very large so I am not bothered by traveling next to a larger person. :D

[GatorPal]

I may be in the minority here but why should someone be expected to buy an extra seat so they can be accomodated? I am not talking about strickly for comfort (since there seems to be little of that on airlines these days) but for those who truly cannot fit in a standard airline seat. Airlines are by law made to accomodate passengers with documented disabilities (seeing, hearing impaired). For those passengers who are truly affected by their size, why are they not accomodated in a similiar fashion? Again, this would not apply to someone "just because . . . " And perhaps that is the problem: who would decide who is large and who is LARGE.



But that's my 2-cents (and -- FYI -- I'm not speaking from a LARGE point-of-view).

[FLA Traveler]

I think GatorPal has a good point. The airlines would no doubt fight the extra seat concept all the way whereas it would cost them money! Too bad -- as the comfort of passengers (all passengers) really should enter into it somewhere!

[jjjenny]

I wish there was some solution....about a year ago, I was flying back home after vacation with my husband. I had the middle seat and a big man (not overweight, just big) sat in the seat next to me. He put his feet in my middle part and leaned over on me. I then had to lean on my husband...the whole flight I was VERY uncomfortable and had a hard time trying to eat when we were served a lunch. I almost did complain about that!

[Love2snorkel]

How humiliating it must be for people who are forced to purchase a 2nd seat because they are large. I do think that it is a form of discrimination and that airline seats are no longer made fo the average American.



On a side note, my husband and I were recently in Kauai (thanks to Christopher Elliott) and one of the helicopter flight companies wanted my husband to pay double for his seat because of his weight. We ended up going with another company, Heli USA, and had a fantastic flight!

[Little Person]

The problem of passengers needing extra space (in the form of an extra seat) really affects ALL passengers. First, the larger ones who need the space, and then, secondly, others who sit next to them and are impacted as a result. I read above a very unkind comment about these larger passengers needing to loose weight. Yeah right -- like that attitude it going to do anyone any good on the travel date itself. The airlines need to be more in tune with passengers. If they were, maybe they wouldn't be in the $$ problem they are.

[Aquaria]

Airlines are by law made to accomodate passengers with documented disabilities (seeing, hearing impaired). For those passengers who are truly affected by their size, why are they not accomodated in a similiar fashion?



Unfortunately, obesity is not recognized as a "disability" by law, so the airlines are home free on this and they know it. :(

[Love2snorkel]

SWA just had on their program Airline, a 15 year old who was 6 ft 10 who had such long legs that he wouldn't fit in a normal seat, but he fit in the emergency row just fine. Luckily for him, he was just barely allowed to sit in the emergency row, being a young 15.



My husband is so tall that his head touches the roof of Aloha Airlines.



On another note, my good friend is a Vietnam vet who is majorly disabled. He spent over a year in traction after a motorcycle accident after suffering a broken back, one of his legs is about 8 inches shorter than the other and he has had his metal femur bone replaced several times. He has since gone thru cancer and has had a hernia operation. He needs to have a triple bypass and has put on weight over the years because he can barely walk. If the airlines don't consider that to be a disability, I don't know what is!

[Linder]

The first time I ever flew, as a child, from Boston to Portland Oregon, the fare was $388. That was in 1974 - 31 years ago. Today, the same flight would cost $288! So the reality is that airlines are under tremedous pressure to keep fares low. Most are the airlines are having financial troubles, because we are insisting on low fares, lower than 30 years ago!



The reality also is that as Americans, we are getting larger and larger. The seats are not getting smaller, we are getting bigger. And we keep insisting on lower and lower fares, and then we complain about the airlines not caring about us and our new larger size.



We cannot have it both ways, cheap airfares, and larger seats!

[Love2snorkel]

You are so right Linder.



I do think that they need to make bigger seats for people who they are double charging though....so they don't have a metal arm rest jammed in their backs.

[aradiva]

I used to buy two seats in coach when I was 60 pounds heavier. It worked fine to give extra width usually (although sometimes the shape of the seat backs would dig into me, and sometimes even though I put the arm up, it wouldn't go *all* the way up, and that would dig into me), but when the person in front would recline their seat, I would usually be miserably uncomfortable, feeling like I had to read a book right at the end of my nose, and basically being totally unable to use my tray table. I used to keep my knees pushed into the seatback so most people couldn't recline, except I would have to be hyper vigilant. Sometimes I would try to talk people out of it... Basically as a tall & large person, I was sardinesville, which was especially hard on long flights to Europe. I did luck out and get bumped up to business class coming back from Europe on Lufthansa once, but that was because they screwed up and I had to be rescheduled a day late (they also paid hotel and meals for the delay). But business class was definitely heavenly.



I have only flown a couple of times since 9/11, because the enhanced security issues really bother me.... (once they start patting down my breasts, I start screaming...). I drive if my destination is within 12 hours or so.

[Largge]

I read that Southwest charges persons with "wide booties" who will not fit in one seat for the extra seat they occupy.



I also recall reading that the airlines might still be using data from the 1950's? for passengers. Something like 159 pounds summer and 189 pounds winter for an adult male including his carry on and checked luggage. (anyone know the exact figures?) GET REAL FAA. The 1950's male might have been 120 pounds, but no longer. Just because today's Grandma weighs 100 pounds it does not end there. I see many retirees checking bags they can barely lift onto the scale. Grandma plus two checked 65 pound bags is 230 pounds.



The average business travelel with carry on computers and such have to have at least 200 pounds average cabin weight, by my estimation on a recent trip.



When I check a bag for a long trip, my checked plus carry on plus me is over 320 pounds.



You use that 159 pound figure for weight and balance and you are going to crash some planes. A 300 seat plane with 200 pounds average passenger and baggage is 60,000 pounds of load. At 300 pounds average, that is an extra 30,000 pounds. I believe some of the newer plans have load sensors on the landing gear that give the crew the actual loaded weight. The airlines have to have some more recent information on the average weight of passengers including baggage. It has to be way over 159 pounds.



A 20 seat or so commuter plane went down in Va or the Carolinas a couple years back. I dont know what the official report said, but as a pilot it looked like a classic case of a tail heavy plane that took off and then pancaked a few hundred yards later. The elevator does not have enough travel to offset a few Lardos in the last row.



Delta flies the 72 seat ATR turboprop, which has a rear door. It needs a tail stand to keep the tail from dropping when the passengers deplane. If all the passengers walk to the rear the center of gravity shifts that much.



On flights that were less than 1/3 full, the FAs have come through the cabin and moved a few large passengers to different seats "at the cockpits request" to trim the planes balance. If a few passengers on a 1/3 full plane make that much difference, it would be all to easy to wack the CG trim on a plane full of lardos.



It's not just a comfort issue for the passengers, it is a load balance safety issue, too.

[DPenny]

I traveled about a month and a half ago on a long flight across the country. I had last flown in 2001. Although my airfare was dramatically less costly than previouly, I was struck by the fact that the planes were a good deal smaller, necessitating smaller seats. A very large or heavy person would have difficulty walking the aisles of these carriers, much less finding a comfortable seat, and don't even think about using the lavatory.

[Jeanie821]

Originally posted by silver cloud@May 19 2005, 09:52 AM
JJO,
I have the opposite problem.* I'm only 4'10 and while I have plenty of room in the seat, the headrest hits me at the worst possible angle and throws my head down!* Of course, my friends get a good laugh from it.* Not to mention that I usually put my carry-on stowed underneath so I can rest my short legs on it!
I feel for you buddy!** :wink:
718

I'm only an inch taller than you, so I've been where you are. There's another reason why I stow my bag under the seat in front of me - I can't reach the overhead bin!!!

[Gigs]

Ahh, the problem of big people...I am much like the original poster - 6'6", 265#. I travel frequently enough to know some of the better seats. SWAir has the best seat in the house and it's not an emergency row. SWair, I believe they use the 737, has a two seat emergency row; having taken out the seat neearest the door/bulkhead. So, the seat immediately behind the taken out seat could be the best seat in the house. They key is getting to it - that prized "A" ticket and being one of the first two people in line.

I also fly Business class on AirTran as well, usually the price is no more than $179 - it only gets you two free cocktails and no food, but the legroom/shoulder width is heaven.

[Gigs]

Actually, the word on the street is that Boeing much like many auto manufacturers is starting to design their planes with big people in mind. Human engineering has always been a focus and they are starting to stress the fact that people are bigger than 25 years ago.

[Blueplanet]

Thats a good thing in my opinion. No need for people to be so miserable. The airlines industry is the only business I know that can make people uncomfortable,angry, sick and broke and have people be frequent "flyers". Good Grief! :wacko: :wacko:

[Platinum Traveler]

"form of discrimination and that airline seats are no longer made fo the average American"...

Don't you mean that the American is no longer made for the airline seats? Discrimination implies that someone has a condition that demands accommodation and acceptance without quesiton (i.e. being of a minority race, having a mality). Being overweight is a changable condition.

As for the original posted question: I am also a tall man 6'3" with broad sholders. I always book my flights directly with the airlines or through an off-line agent. I've experienced the treatment from online agencies when it comes to making needed changes or other situations..... yuck. At any rate, when you book with an airline or through an agent you will have the option to choose your seat at the time of booking. This would eliminate the problem of having purchased two seats with no guarantees of assignment together. You also have the option to monitor the seating changes in the rest of the aircraft that occur between booking time and take-off. In other words, get the exit row then! Most airlines hold the bulk head seats until the day of the flight for folks with physical disabilities that need extra care and attention. Should those seats be unused you can request a seat change on the day of the flight.

The last suggestion is to try for an isle seat. You can gain a couple inches of sholder room by leaning into the isle slightly. Only problem, watch those beverage carts!

Good luck big man!

[jfrenaye]

(i.e. being of a minority race, having a mality). Being overweight is a changable condition.


Hmmm....Michael Jackson?

[gzfraud]

Originally posted by GatorPal@Jun 28 2005, 03:40 PM
I may be in the minority here but why should someone be expected to buy an extra seat so they can be accomodated? I am not talking about strickly for comfort (since there seems to be little of that on airlines these days) but for those who truly cannot fit in a standard airline seat. Airlines are by law made to accomodate passengers with documented disabilities (seeing, hearing impaired). For those passengers who are truly affected by their size, why are they not accomodated in a similiar fashion? Again, this would not apply to someone "just because . . . " And perhaps that is the problem: who would decide who is large and who is LARGE.
But that's my 2-cents (and -- FYI -- I'm not speaking from a LARGE point-of-view).
3108


I travel 100,000 miles a year (see first article at http://www.theprosandthecons.com/Articles.htm). Tell you what I hate.......someone who weighs about twice what they should and asks if they can use part of my seating space. I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.

[drwong]

Originally posted by Platinum Traveler@Jul 15 2005, 08:19 AM
Being overweight is a changable condition.

4326


Whoa there, cowboy. Not all obesity is voluntary, like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, or diabetes. Sometimes it's genetic, or the result of a glandular misfunction. The definition of "disability" is so broad, that obesity can very easily be included in that definition by a judge or jury.

Airlines do try to accommodate VLPs (very large passengers) by trying to place them adjacent to an unoccupied seat, and not charging them for a second seat unless the person's girth results in another passenger being denied a seat. If the plane departs with at least one empty seat and the VLP is occupying it, there's no harm or loss to either the passenger or the airline. But if it's a full flight and passengers denied boarding are entitled to denied boarding compensation, airlines will then have to charge the VLP for the extra seat.

I know a musician who travels with a cello, and the cello occupies the seat beside her. The airline charges her for two tickets, even if there is an empty seat on the plane! Perhaps this is discrimination against the musically inclined???

[Jeanie821]

Originally posted by gzfraud@Jul 15 2005, 03:44 PM
I travel 100,000 miles a year (see first article at http://www.theprosandthecons.com/Articles.htm). Tell you what I hate.......someone who weighs about twice what they should and asks if they can use part of my seating space. I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.
4405


With all due respect, buddy... I'm going to break my own vow and speak up here. I'm overweight, okay? I'm pudgy, chubby, portly, plump - hey, pick your pejorative. I'm trying to lose weight, and it's coming off, but very slowly. (The speed at which I'm losing weight is due to a medical condition.) I also bathe every single day, sometimes twice a day, and I exercise too. While I'm not so heavy that I can't fit in a single airline seat, I feel for people who are having trouble losing weight or can't lose it quickly. I do take care of myself, I'm certainly not lazy, and I'm always clean.

Look, pal - we can't all be perfect. And I don't think that this board is a place to abuse people who aren't exactly like us.

[trojan]

I am as VLP as VLP gets. I have also been merely a VTP (6' 5"). Due to my skeletal frame, I have always encroached upon my neighbor's space. Short of dislocating my shoulders, there's nothing I could do. My obesity has nothing to do with this.

I most defintitely have compassion for my neighbor. I know I feel resentment anytime another invades my personal space. I make a point to apologize and I attempt like crazy to not make many moves.

The truth is that we are all at the mercy of seat configuration. Economy seats have always been on the small side. Always. So to those who argue that the flying public could get more satisfactory seats by paying more, I say this is a fatuous argument. The last thing the airlines will do with increased revenue is reduce the number of seats to ensure bigger seats for all.

If I am seated next to you in the future, I ask forebearance and understanding. It seems to me that we all endure slights and abuses while flying today. If your mindset can't understand that you are going to experience unpleasantness in your travels, I humbly suggest you stay home.

Aloha.

[Guest]

try being 6'11 at 365lbs

[Walter]

I can assume that Aaronk does not deal with airlines often. With passengers you don't count.

[clarkef]

Originally posted by gzfraud@Jul 15 2005, 03:44 PM
I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.
4405


My friend.

Making ad hominem attacks associating large people with poor hygiene is the sort of foolishness that one expects on the playground, not in a forum of sophisticated travelers.

Unless you are a medical doctor, you are not in a position to determine whya given person is overweight. For example, a previous girlfriend of mine gained over 100 pounds after she was sexually assaulted. I gained a bunch of weight after a botched surgery which necessitated 5 corrective surgeries.

Regarding the OP's post, I would suggest the following which have helped me immensely.

1. Get the highest elite status as possible. This will entitled you to domestic upgrades on most flights as well as easier access to exit row seats

2. Join the airline lounge, i.e. Admiral's Club. They are instructed to be as helpful as possible, particularly if you have status.

3. Use SeatGuru.com to assist in finding the best seat for your circumstances

4. Fly during the low capacity times. Avoid Monday morning business routes, and Friday night leisure routes.

5. Ask for a handi-capped aisle seat. In many planes, the aisle armrest can be raised by pushing an almost hidden button, giving you an extra 2 inches of room without impeeding your neighbor.

At 6 feet, 350#, I have had great success on American Airlines using the above methods.

[JR]

United Airlines offers Economy Plus (E+) with 4" to 6" extra seat pitch in the front several rows of the Y cabin on every mainline aircraft they fly, international or domestic. At 6'5" I won't fly any other carrier. E+ is available free of charge to all levels of Star Alliance elite or anyone on a full Y fare. They also sell an annual Economy Plus Access pass for $299.00 which gives E+ for the holder and one companion for a year - certainly cheaper than paying for two seats every time you need to fly. One year with the EA Pass should let you earn enough miles to make basic elite at 25k miles and from then on E+ is free.

This one feature outweighs all others in terms of airline loyalty in my "oversized" opinion. :)

JR

[lameline]

just a little story. i think the moral is to "be good humored"....my very broad shouldered friend was once put in a middle seat, and everyone in that row was uncomfortable. he asked the FA if there were larger seats, and she replied, "no, sir. all the seats are the same size." he said, "well, god didn't make us all the same size, so maybe you can help us out." she laughed and found him an aisle seat. he still had to contend with the food carts pummeling his shoulder, but he was the only person inconvenienced. mele kalikimaka, everyone!

[AaronK]

Originally posted by JR@Dec 23 2005, 11:20 AM
United Airlines offers Economy Plus (E+) with 4" to 6" extra seat pitch in the front several rows of the Y cabin on every mainline aircraft they fly, international or domestic.* At 6'5" I won't fly any other carrier.* E+ is available free of charge to all levels of Star Alliance elite or anyone on a full Y fare.* They also sell an annual Economy Plus Access pass for $299.00 which gives E+ for the holder and one companion for a year - certainly cheaper than paying for two seats every time you need to fly.* One year with the EA Pass should let you earn enough miles to make basic elite at 25k miles and from then on E+ is free.

This one feature outweighs all others in terms of airline loyalty in my "oversized" opinion.** :)

JR
16171


If I need two seats, its not the pitch of the seat that is an issue, its the width.

[Guest]

Originally posted by AaronK@Dec 23 2005, 12:29 PM
If I need two seats, its not the pitch of the seat that is an issue, its the width.
16174



I guess I didn't make it clear that I was reponding to the OP, who made it clear that he fits in the seats but needs more legroom. In that context, the pitch of the seat was very much the issue.

JR

[Arizona Road Warrior]

Since Americans are getting larger and larger, this is a problem that will not go away in the near future instead it will become a bigger problem. If I was running an US airline, I will have “Big & Tall’ seats on my planes. I think that most ‘big & tall’ individuals are willing to pay more for a bigger seat (width and leg room) that will give them a comfortable flight to be more productive (if they need to work on the flight) and/or arrive fresher.

[ajaynejr]

Originally posted by jjjenny@Jun 28 2005, 03:53 PM
I wish there was some solution....ÂÂ* I had the middle seat and a big man (not overweight, just big) sat in the seat next to me.ÂÂ* He put his feet in my middle part and leaned over on me.ÂÂ* ÂÂ* I almost did complain about that!
3116
There is. (Why didn't you) complain before depature, going all the way to summoning the complaint resolution officer if you are not satisfied beforehand.

By the way, "he" is totally in the wrong regarding what you described.
Originally posted by Arizona Road Warrior@Dec 24 2005, 01:10 PM
Since Americans are getting larger and larger, this is a problem that will not go away in the near future instead it will become a bigger problem. 16215
The problem will go away and soon when more people start complaining.

[Barbra]

Originally posted by gzfraud@Jul 15 2005, 03:44 PM
I travel 100,000 miles a year (see first article at http://www.theprosandthecons.com/Articles.htm). Tell you what I hate.......someone who weighs about twice what they should and asks if they can use part of my seating space. I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.
4405

[stevetvl]

:D
I too suffered - not from size as I'm 5'10' under 170 and ended up in a middle middle seat on an AF MIA/PAR. I thought what the hell it's a 747 and should be comfortable. Little did I know it was full no empty seats with over 450 people & for the first time ever got an attack of claustrophobia. fortunately I was able to trade with an aisle person and only had to contend with no knee room for the balance of the flight - seemed like 24 hours long

GOOD NEWS - I found seatguru.com and it has come in very handy when flying Song. It's not always right but though I don't hink I'll ever fly AF 747 again, but if I do I'll ask the guru

Check it out

[Ned]

Originally posted by stevetvl@Dec 26 2005, 07:04 PM
:D
I too suffered - not from size as I'm 5'10' under 170 and ended up in a middle middle seat on an AF MIA/PAR...

...GOOD NEWS - I found seatguru.com and it has come in very handy when flying Song. It's not always right but though I don't hink I'll ever fly AF 747 again, but if I do I'll ask the guru..
16251

SeatGuru.com is a great resource. I use it all the time.

I had an exit row seat on a Delta flight last year, but it didn't help much. The flight was full. I'm only 5'6", 160 but not particularly narrow, though I easily fit in the seats. Fortunately it was a short flight. I had two behemoths who were friends on either side of me. They bought their seats hoping no on would sit in the middle. I'm sorry I did. I guess I can't fault SeatGuru.com for not knowing these two bought those seats. Their arms and shoulders were on my shoulders, literally resting there. They were wide enough that their sides were actually touching mine.

They were really nice guys though and without my asking them, they asked me if I would like to move to the aisle seat. I thanked them and moved immediately. It was definitely better.

[Guest]

The ICAO Standard that ALL airlines use is 175# for every passenger. This is used for EVERY flight to determine Weight and Balance. This is done, by Law, for every flight from Cessna 150's to A380's.

When I was taking my PPL I had a serious finacial constraint as I was too wide for the 152, too heavy for the seat rating of the Katana and therefore had to incur the added costs of renting a 172 for even my solo.

I am 188cm (6'2") and 127kg (280#), played professional sport and have always been a larger ahlete.

Am I overweight? Not after I got finished with my Life Insurer. They gave me Standard Rates after having me at a Double Rating due to being "morbidly obese" by their definitions.

I have a 132cm (52") chest and a 96.5cm (38") waist; medically I will live to be 100.

In short I am a larger passenger who has experience from the cockpit to the cheap seats.

Medically, morbid obesisty is defined as being 30% over your 'ideal' body weight. There is no medical definition of 'ideal' body weight. Height/weight charts and the BMI are NOT appropriate indicators of obesity; Michael Jordan is a 31 and Arnold Schwarzenegger is a 33 on the BMI, are they obese?

The ICAO has issued directives to all airlines to modify thier W&B calculations to represent the larger generation of flyers that now inhabit the skies.

In truth it has been a generation since the issue was addressed in the late 50's/ early 60's when the last Standard was set. Everyone around the world gets bigger from one generation to the next, that is one of the prices of progress.

Some airlines, Air Canada, are lowering the allowable baggage weight limits before they charge extra due to this (31.8kg down to 22.7kg- 70# down to 50#). More airlines will follow suit as mass equals fuel equals lower revenue per seat mile.

I use SeatGuru.com, SeatExpert.com, the airline's own site, my travel Counselor and my experience to get me through every flight. I will never book on-line again as I had a problem that took months to reconcile and not to my satisfaction. I choose Exit rows for the added stretch out room but have flown in the tail of an MD-80. I apologize to my seat mate but even though my butt fits a 17.5" wide seat my shoulders do not. I cannot sit in an aisle seat as I would lose all feeling in my exposed extremity from the constant contact so I choose a window seat. The ability to sleep from push off to landing has allowed me to endure most flights. I have never been forced to purchase an additional seat nor would I ever do so.

Boeing is gaining market share and orders on Airbus by virtue of recognizing that people are growing and they have adjusted their new product offerings to reflect that. The Europeans have not which explains the potential seat density of the A380.

On routes where I could drive to my destination in less than 8 hours I do so. When I factor in the time requiired to get to the airport, clear security etc that is the time frame I have found washes.

I was on Long Island, NY 2001-09-11 and flew from Philadelphia home on 2001-09-14. I was back in an airliner 2001-09-17 so I have modified my travel to respond to the challenges forced on me by that event.

In closing I choose the lowest cost airfare for my destination and understand that I will not get all that I wish. I no longer dress up like I did for flights 20 or more years ago because I don't dress up for Greyhound. The airline industry has challenges built in from how they used to run and have not adjusted to the realities of today.

They use too small aircraft, carrying too large people, too often, on too many of the same routes.

When the industry passes their customers and when airports design for the future not today then flying will be less of a challenge.

Either that or I will get myself one of the new crop of personal jets that are coming to market from manufacturers as diverse as Cessna and Honda and amortize the costs over time and my tax return.

[Guest_Tommie Imbernino_*]

Hello. I'm a travel agent and often when First Class is too expensive a client will want that extra seat. It is easy to go into the seat plan and see if there are two seats next to each other. The other option is to establish loyalty with an airline to become preferred. Then you can at least get the exit row.

I am very small and on a recent flight the person in front chose to put his seat down the entire flight. His seat down in my lap made it impossible for me to get up. The flight attendants in coach are now the senior ones as they don't have to do any work and they refused to ask the person in front if he would put his seat up while he was eating.

Lastly, many of the airlines have great first class fares now if booked in a certain class of service.

Good luck.

[stephen_s]

Originally posted by JR@Dec 23 2005, 09:20 AM
E+ is available free of charge to all levels of Star Alliance elite or anyone on a full Y fare.* They also sell an annual Economy Plus Access pass for $299.00 which gives E+ for the holder and one companion for a year - certainly cheaper than paying for two seats every time you need to fly.* One year with the EA Pass should let you earn enough miles to make basic elite at 25k miles and from then on E+ is free.

16171


ECONOMY PLUS is available free of charge (or already included in the price) for all flyers if they are flying between New York and Los Angeles or New York and San Francisco. This is part of their premium service. They use the 757 with 3-classes. Meals are offered free of charge.

[werners]

Originally posted by gzfraud@Jul 15 2005, 03:44 PM
I travel 100,000 miles a year (see first article at http://www.theprosandthecons.com/Articles.htm). Tell you what I hate.......someone who weighs about twice what they should and asks if they can use part of my seating space. I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.
4405



My dear bonehead - I can understand the frustration of a fellow passenger asking you for room (since there is so little of it to go arround). As a big guy myself, I go out of my way not to encroach on other passengers (I always request exit-row aisle seating, and often sit with my arms crossed to help maximize shoulder room)

HOWEVER - what really P****S me is your disgusting and pathetic attitude towards overweight people. Do YOU know everyone's story? Perhaps, not everyone can excercise like you due to other physical problems. I know many people who eat normal diets, take care of themselves in every way, but can not excercise or walk any distance due to back or knee ailments you might never notice if you did not know them. These people have to cope with a weight condition they simply can not control.

Now - people like yourself will probably just put on the same "they could if they tried harder" attitude, but unless you know and understand other peoples situations, don't comment on them, and show some F*****g courtesy.

[Guest]

Originally posted by werners@Dec 31 2005, 11:10 AM
My dear bonehead ... P****S ... F*****g courtesy.
16547

What burns me are people, fat or otherwise, who use profanity when demanding courtesy. You ain't getting it here, bud.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Guest@Dec 31 2005, 12:56 PM
What burns me are people, fat or otherwise, who use profanity when demanding courtesy.* You ain't getting it here, bud.
16550

I was going to say that I'm tired of unregistered people hiding behind their anonymity and making unwarranted personal attacks on posters instead of sticking to the issues, that is until I read your most appropriate comment. Hopefully you'll join the community and continue to participate.

Have a happy and healthy new year.

[nobody122]

Originally posted by Ned@Dec 31 2005, 03:06 PM
I was going to say that I'm tired of unregistered people hiding behind their anonymity and making unwarranted personal attacks on posters instead of sticking to the issues, that is until I read your most appropriate comment.* Hopefully you'll join the community and continue to participate.

Have a happy and healthy new year.
16557


Agree on that one--I don't hide my identity and I am an arrogant, cocky, republican. But I do have to agree, if there is a lrage person, any space they "ooze" into on my seat should be refunded to me as I had paid for a certain minimal amount of room to get my from point A to point B. What is even worse is a large person requesting an exit row--on most flights--guess what--the arm rest doesn't move.

[trojan]

Two things.

If a pax is too fat to buckle a single belt, the pax cannot sit in exit row.

Second, I much prefer the "tray-in-seat" type seats if I am next to a big person. I am guaranteed more of my seat that way. With the movable arm rests, the lower half as well as the upper half of my seatmate "bleeds over" into my precious space.

[SunBaby]

Originally posted by Exfacto@Apr 6 2005, 11:34 AM
I'm a big guy though not fat and airline seats are just painful!* I'm 6'6" and 255 pounds.* While I'm thin enough to fit in a seat my shoulders are wider than the seat back meaning I take up more seat than I have.* I've looked into buying an extra seat for comfort but the airline won't guarantee my non-refundable extra seat will be next to the one I'm sitting in (uughh!).* When the person in front of me puts their seat back I'm in agony and arguments have ensued.
Emergency exit row is rarely available.* I know this because I've arrived 5 hours before a flight and struck out.*
What real world options exist??
215

[Ned]

So SunBaby, what's the point of quoting another poster and then not adding any comment in yourself?!?! You've merely wasted space and time.

[sardine]

I recently had a wonderful experience sitting next to a large man on a six-hour flight. I must admit, however, that when I saw him place his mandolin case in the bin above my row, I was not exactly overjoyed knowing that we would be occupying a very small space for a moderately long flight. I was flying alone and sitting in a middle seat.

The very first thing that this man did was apologize to me for his size - reality check! How utterly shallow of me to have judged him on the basis of size alone! Shame on me! I KNOW BETTER! I am not exactly svelte myself, but I do fit comfortably into standard airline seats, thank goodness.

For the record, eating is not on the short list of my favorite things to do, and if I am alone for any length of time I usually forget to eat! I am currently undergoing tests to determine what has caused me to gain weight as it appears to be a medical problem. Please don't make snap judgments when you see overweight people. If you are thin, be thankful and try to respect people for who they are. Someone's "Earth Suit" may have flaws, but that is not necessarily an indication of a flawed character.

My large, saintly seat mate spent the entire flight with his arms folded across his chest, which was very uncomfortable for him, so that I would be more comfortable! He also made himself stay awake so that he would not snore and disturb people in his immediate vicinity. And, his attention to personal hygiene was perfect; he was neat and clean. So much for stereotypes!

In addition to his consideration of others, this man was intelligent, outgoing, confident, and friendly; we spent a significant amount of time engaged in pleasant conversation. It would have been my loss if he had been seated somewhere else on the plane.

After a couple of hours, ignoring a gentle protest, I put the arm of the seat up so that my seat mate, who was more concerned about my comfort than his own, would be more comfortable, and he most certainly was for the remainder of the flight.

Again, so much for stereotypes!!!

[Jeanie821]

Originally posted by Ned@Dec 31 2005, 02:06 PM
I was going to say that I'm tired of unregistered people hiding behind their anonymity and making unwarranted personal attacks on posters instead of sticking to the issues, that is until I read your most appropriate comment.* Hopefully you'll join the community and continue to participate.

Have a happy and healthy new year.
16557


Amen, amen!

I used to be uncomfortable expressing my opinion. Not any more. Please, people, if you're going to give your opinions, identify yourselves - we don't bite!

A blessed New Year to all!

[Anita Dunham-Potter]

This is an interesting thread it's apparently an issue in Australia as well. This is from today's Sydney Morning Herald

SYD MH National Airlines feel the weight of fat flyers by Amy Lawson

January 8, 2006 AUSTRALIA'S growing obesity problem is forcing airlines to adopt unique measures to cater for the increasing number of overweight passengers.

Some Australian airlines have installed larger seats and all have arrangements in place to supply extended seatbelts for overweight passengers.

And experts say it is only a matter of time until Australian airlines follow the lead of at least one American carrier, Southwest Airlines, which charges larger passengers for an extra ticket if they are too big for a standard seat.

A recent report by The American Journal Of Preventive Medicine found that overweight passengers were adding millions to the fuel costs of airlines, but there seems to be no comparable data here.

Between 1989 and 2001, the average weight of an Australian adult increased from 70.1 kilograms to 74.3 kilograms, and 60 per cent of the Australian population is now obese or overweight.

Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation chief executive Peter Harbison said the increasing weight of passengers had an impact on costs, but airlines were unlikely to make changes that could potentially lose customers.

"Even if it's a cost issue for the airlines, the much greater cost would be in upsetting passengers and losing them forever," he said.

But he said it was conceivable that in the future Australian carriers could adopt a policy similar to the one used by Southwest Airlines.

Jetstar corporate relations manager Simon Westaway said the company had no intention of adopting such a policy, but the airline was already catering for the bigger passenger.

Mr Westaway said the company's new Airbus A320 had the widest economy seats in the market, measuring 45 centimetres between armrests.

"One of the reasons we went for that was because we are seeing a trend in wider girths," he said. "We don't make a big selling point of that but [the seat] is wider than our competitor's."

[FlyByNight]

Originally posted by daawgon@Jun 15 2005, 03:23 PM
I just wanted to let Exfacto know that there is an airline that sells different sized seats (small, medium and large). It's the Danish line, Maersk (not sure I have the spelling right?) Yes, they only fly short distances in Europe, but I'm glad to see that someone's thinking about us large guys, [b]and as I think of it, that's a hefty percentage of us Americans!
2082

And who's fault is that?

[FlyByNight]

Originally posted by Arizona Road Warrior@Dec 24 2005, 01:10 PM
Since Americans are getting larger and larger, this is a problem that will not go away in the near future instead it will become a bigger problem.* If I was running an US airline, I will have “Big & Tall’ seats on my planes.* I think that most ‘big & tall’ individuals are willing to pay more for a bigger seat (width and leg room) that will give them a comfortable flight to be more productive (if they need to work on the flight) and/or arrive fresher.
16215

Those "Big & Tall" seats? It's called 1st class.

[weblet]

Originally posted by FlyByNight@Jan 13 2006, 03:40 PM
Those "Big & Tall" seats?* It's called 1st class.
17697


Ha!

Register and join us!

[Sancha]

Heh, if only waistline and wealth were positively correlated, I could finally quit the gym and stop torturing myself!
:P

[travel]

Originally posted by clarkef@Dec 23 2005, 11:16 AM
My friend.

Making ad hominem attacks associating large people with poor hygiene is the sort of foolishness that one expects on the playground, not in a forum of sophisticated travelers.

Unless you are a medical doctor, you are not in a position to determine whya given person is overweight.* For example, a previous girlfriend of mine gained over 100 pounds after she was sexually assaulted.* I gained a bunch of weight after a botched surgery which necessitated 5 corrective surgeries.
16170


AMEN!!! Thanks clarkef. I gained 50 pounds when I was having unknown allergic reactions and had to be put on steroids to keep from dying because my airway would close up. Granted, I went from a size 6 to a size 14, but that extra 50 pounds was a lot for me, and it made a lot of things more uncomfortable. How dare you assume that I would have gained that weight because I was lazy. Shame on you for you intolerance and judgemental assumptions. Didn't your mother ever tell you what it means to ASSUME?? :angry:

I recently flew back from Maui on a completely full flight next to a retired basketball player (think I've posted about this before). He was not overweight, but was VERY tall. He was uncomfortable, and so was I since he was encroaching on "my" space on an overnight flight, but he was nice, and polite, and very apologetic. It was not my favorite way to spend my flight home, but his gentlemanly nature made it bearable.

[missalf]

Originally posted by gzfraud@Jul 15 2005, 03:44 PM
I travel 100,000 miles a year (see first article at http://www.theprosandthecons.com/Articles.htm). Tell you what I hate.......someone who weighs about twice what they should and asks if they can use part of my seating space. I'm not talking the disabled here. I'm talking about people who simply eat too much and don't exercise and don't bathe. I work hard at staying fit and trim and don't like excuses. If you won't take care of yourself, DRIVE. You have no right to think I should accomodate your laziness and lack of hygiene.
4405


Yet another argument for limiting posters to registered users of this board. Mr. GZ Fraud, we ain't all tiny, none of us are perfect and we must co-exist in situations we dislike, but one thing we can practice is common courtesy and respect. Attacks of this type are way out of line, and one day I hope you recognize why.

[jimskime]

It's a problem, I'm 6'6" and vary between 230 and 245, my shoulders hang over so I always try for aisle seats and exit rows. On long trips I use my award miles to snag business or first class but sometimes I know I'm just going to be miserable so I sit with my arms crossed and my seat back up and get out of my seat as much as I can. It sucks to be crammed and I understand the complaints about obesity, but God help me there's nothing I can do about my height so anyone who insists that they have a god given right to tilt their seat back ought to consider a little bit of courtesy.

I live in a rural state with very little jet service and few airline choices so it's not always possible to even buy a firts or business class seat. let alone afford it.

[pezmanffx]

I think they should just get rid of reclining seats. They dont recline enough to be comfortable. They just recline enough to be annoying to the person sitting behind you.

[vacationagent]

I think they should just get rid of reclining seats.*

pezman - If airlines got rid of reclining seats, they would add another row of seats to the plane. The problem, as I see it, is that airlines are not required to have seats with the pitch and width to accommodate most passengers and unless they are required to have larger seats with more space between rows, they certainly won't have them.

[sardine]

The airlines are making decisions based upon what the "market will bear." Unfortunately, passengers can't agree on what the standards should be. Those who demand unreasonably low fares seem to be in the majority, and airlines have responded accordingly with the "sardine solution."

I personally believe that the minimum seat pitch should be no less than 34 inches, and I would be willing to pay a higher fare (if not cost prohibitive) for the increase in seat pitch. "X" number of seats would have to be removed to accomplish this, and the loss in revenue could then be recouped by charging a higher fare for the remaining seats.

It would be interesting to see what the percentage of cost increase would be for my 34-inch seat pitch plan. To those of you who like to "do the math," I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me! :blink: :)

[Sancha]

AA did the math. More Room Throughout Coach. Didn't work. I guess it was "cost prohibitive".

UA seems to be happy with their E+ product -- giving more legroom to those customers who pay more for their tickets. And still satisfying the more price-sensitive consumer with regular "E-".

Off the top of my hear, I think Midwest Express cabins have greater pitches in general, and possibly JetBlue as well.

[sardine]

Originally posted by Sancha@Feb 22 2006, 05:30 PM
AA did the math. More Room Throughout Coach. Didn't work. I guess it was "cost prohibitive".

UA seems to be happy with their E+ product -- giving more legroom to those customers who pay more for their tickets. And still satisfying the more price-sensitive consumer with regular "E-".

Off the top of my hear, I think Midwest Express cabins have greater pitches in general, and possibly JetBlue as well.
21005



AA's "More Legroom Throughtout Coach" did not prove a thing because it had to compete with the no frills carriers and major airlines that applied the "sardine solution." AA tried to provide a more generous seat pitch and compete with the low airfares of their competitors. The playing field was anything but level.

I would like to know how much more (percentage of increase) an airline ticket would cost if the playing field were level, meaning that each of the Big Six increased their economy cabin seat pitch to 34 inches, thus eliminating "X" number of seats, and passed the increase in cost per remaining seat to their passengers.

My challenge still stands. :)

Re: UA's E+. I have exercised the option to upgrade for a fee or have been upgraded at no extra cost, which was fine for me, but the majority of the passengers on those flights were forced to suffer being stuffed into seats that were not in compliance with what should become acceptable "flight health" standards. If everyone on a given UA flight attempted to upgrade to E+, it would be impossible because of the limited availability of E+ seating.

If we forced pets to travel in pet crates that limited their movement on the same scale as typical economy class seats on our major airlines, it would be considered inhumane and no doubt many animal rights organizations would prevail in getting the size of the pet crates changed to provide them with adequate space to be comfortable, as it should be!

It is time for humans to say "enough is enough" and force the airlines to increase seat pitch in the economy cabin, which will cost us more, but we will adjust.

[ebob]

The problem that I always had with the "More Room Throughout Coach" is that it never seemed to actually translate into more room. While there was a smidgen more legroom, it was more likely that the center seat would be taken (and more than likely I would be the one sitting there). After this happened on several flights, I gave up and started flying a different airline.

[BarkingLeopard]

Originally posted by vacationagent@Feb 22 2006, 03:51 PM
If airlines got rid of reclining seats, they would add another row of seats to the plane.
20994


Wahoowa, y'all.

I'm "only" 5'10" and 150 lbs, but I'm uncomfortable more often than not in coach, despite the fact that I consider myself a roughly normal-size (neither very "large" nor very "small") passenger. While I selfishly hate having my personal space intruded upon by larger people than myself, I can only imagine how much worse they must feel having that little space everytime they step onto a plane.

Is there a good thread in these foruns about reclining your seat? While I can understand why some people might want/need to recline, I never do it because a) I can fall asleep without reclining my seat, B) I hate having the seat in front of me be uncomfortably close to me when the person reclines , and c) I would feel rude if I reclined on another person, as I can't justify it under the criteria above.

My take on reclining your seat: only do it if you really need to (size issues, sleep issues, etc) and then put your seat back up as soon as you can. I'd (selfishly) love to see fixed/non-reclinable seats (as odd/bad as that may sound), but agree with vacationagent that the airlines would find a way to charge us (or add capacity or reduce seat pitch without lowering prices, which amounts to the same thing in the end) for removing an amenity.

With some of the new all-business class service across the Atlantic springing up, hopefully someone will realize the market for a slightly more premium coach service for international & domestic service, like United's E+ but without the E-.

I have no problem with flying or driving, as I did a lot of both as a kid to visit relatives in different regions of the country. However, I personally have generally found that the waiting and time cushions involved with flying for leisure are not worth the hassle if I can drive there in less than 12-14 hours (a day), unless it is an extremely short (calendar-wise, not distance-wise) trip.

Does anyone have suggestions for things to do that help keep your mind off the sardine conditions? I just try to keep occupied, either with a good book, work, or even a daydream. I like the idea of talking to your cramped seatmate if they're just staring into space. When I took Greyhound a long while back I had a great time talking to a married couple who were beekeepers- how often do you get to learn about something as random as that?!

My motto in life and in travel: learn something from everyone you meet.

[Ned]

Originally posted by BarkingLeopard@Apr 6 2006, 01:14 AM
Wahoowa, y'all...

I'm "only" 5'10" and 150 lbs, but I'm uncomfortable more often than not in coach, despite the fact that I consider myself a roughly normal-size (neither very "large" nor very "small") passenger.* While I selfishly hate having my personal space intruded upon by larger people than myself, I can only imagine how much worse they must feel having that little space everytime they step onto a plane.*

Is there a good thread in these foruns about reclining your seat?* While I can understand why some people might want/need to recline, I never do it ...

My take on reclining your seat: only do it if you really need to (size issues, sleep issues, etc) and then put your seat back up as soon as you can.* I'd (selfishly) love to see fixed/non-reclinable seats ...

With some of the new all-business class service across the Atlantic springing up, hopefully someone will realize the market for a slightly more premium coach service for international & domestic service, like United's E+ but without the E-.*

I have no problem with flying or driving, as I did a lot of both as a kid to visit relatives in different regions of the country.* However, I personally have generally found that the waiting and time cushions involved with flying for leisure are not worth the hassle if I can drive there in less than 12-14 hours (a day), unless it is an extremely short (calendar-wise, not distance-wise) trip.

Does anyone have suggestions for things to do that help keep your mind off the sardine conditions?* I just try to keep occupied, either with a good book, work, or even a daydream.* I like the idea of talking to your cramped seatmate ...

My motto in life and in travel: learn something from everyone you meet.
23815

Hi BL,

If you haven't been welcomed thus far, allow me to welcome you to Tripso.

You had a lot of interesting things to say. I'm small too and don't like my space taken by anyone else, mostly because there really isn't much to loose before you have almost nothing left. If someone reclines I don't particularly mind if they're really using the recline (some people recline the seat the whole way for the flight's duration and then don't even sit with their back against the seat. I know when I'm ready to sleep I recline as well. When someone reclines what gets me a little upset is when they rocket back.

I am absolutely against non-reclining seats because if the airlines put them in they're going to pack even more seats into the plane than now and we'll get even less room between seats than now. Economy is too cramped as it is.

You mentioned that if you "can drive there in less than 12-14 hours (a day)" you'll do that, in general, rather than fly. That's almost the opposite of me. While I don't mind driving, if I'm just trying to get from one place to another, I rather use my time more productively than driving. I used to drive like you, but no more. I live in PHL, and if I'm going to NY or perhaps Boston or Washington I'm on the train. We have relatives in Richmond, VA and always fly there now. We just wait for a special fare on US Air for Richmond which are available at least once per month. I can get to Richmond, for example, in about 5 hours by driving, if there aren't any traffic problems. I can get to Richmond via US Air in less than 3 hours including getting to the airport, waiting to board, flying and getting into Richmond from the airport. I only have carry-on and so don't have to wait for luggage. The cost is $128 round trip. To me, the 2 hour saving is worth it. If I'm going further, where it would take longer to drive, the time savings becomes even greater and more worthwhile.

Here's my suggestions for the plane to take your mind off the "sardine conditions". I always have my music with me. I carry a 20GB MP3 player with a large variety of music installed to suit the way I feel at the time. I use Sennheiser noise cancelling headphones. They really make a difference over normal earphones or plugs. I have adapters so I can use them plugged into the plane's system if I'm watching a movie or their music. I take my laptop with me and at least 10 DVD movies to choose from. I have my Palm with me. I have a zillion games in the Palm, but better for flights, I have a crossword puzzle program, and get a new puzzle downloaded into my Palm every day. I save them up in the Palm for traveling. I always bring a great book with me. I'm partial to historical non-fiction. If I want I can always work, which is the primary reason I don't travel without my computer.

Happy flying.

[germanwifeplus2]

Hi everyone,
i'm a big girl and not afraid to admit it. i'm 5'8 and about 275. i flew for the first time last year, i flew from dallas to germany. i was told by most airlines that i would have to buy a second seat. i was horrified. it took my husband and i a while to save up what we had to visit his mother over seas. my husband himself is a large man, 5'11 and 265. we ended up going with aa and getting two seats near the window next to eachother. i took the window seat for the little bit of extra room under the window and was very comfortable. aa even allowed me to come in a week before my flight to try out the seats. i cringe everytime i see the show airline wiht the episode of the woman who was allowed to fly one way but on the way home she had to buy a second seat.. just makes me appreciate aa.....