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View Full Version : Should Homeland Security be able to search your laptop without probable cause?


Ned
02-11-2008, 04:25 PM
An article by CNN, Suit: Airport searches of laptops, other devices intrusive (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/02/11/laptop.searches/index.html), discusses Homeland Security inspections of laptops, BlackBerries, and MP3 players, without probable cause, and any explanation to the owner, which happen routinely at US entry ports, which include lengthy questioning and intrusive searches, and agents forcing owners to give them access to password-protected, confidential information including personal banking records.

Personally, forgetting for a moment I believe I don't leave my Constitutional rights at home when I leave the country, I have other problems with these searches:
Homeland Security refuses to reveal to the public what policies and procedures exist governing their questioning and searches of individuals at the nation's ports of entry.
I am concerned about the security of personal and business information obtained by customs. Homeland Security refuses to reveal how they handle the information they retrieve.
In many cases, Homeland Security has confiscated and never returned the devices.
They don't permit the owners to retrieve data from the devices which don't exist anywhere else and are vital to the owner.
They don't have a procedure for the owners to petition to retrieve the device or information located on it.
They don't have a procedure for the owners to find out the disposition of the devices, or to require to government to destroy the devices, to protect the information, if necessary.
They refuse to reveal how the information taken from the device is used and/or stored. Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, equates searches of electronic devices to those of papers in briefcases.

"You forgo your right to privacy when you are seeking admission into the country," he says. "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects."

But Marcia Hoffman, an attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, says the searches go too far.

"Your laptop computer may contain your financial records, your e-mail with your friends and your family and your co-workers, records of the Web sites you visit, confidential business information," Hoffman says.

"Our position is there should be some suspicion of wrongdoing before the government can search your sensitive personal information at the border."
Georgetown University Law Center professor David Cole says he agrees.So, do you think, "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects," or perhaps do you think Homeland Security should have to obey the laws of the land, starting with the Constitution.

wrp96
02-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Well, considering I think all branches of government should follow the Constitution...

mercwyn
02-11-2008, 05:31 PM
We all know that I'm a strong believer in Constitutional protections and due process. I have no objection to DHS verifying that my laptop is actually a laptop and not a bomb by any number of technical means but I do object to them or any other government agency "inspecting" or "searching" my laptop's hard drive without a court order. What is on my hard drive isn't any of their business unless they can show to a court of law probable cause that I've done something illegal.

Gesualdo
02-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Thanks Merc. You said it. Here's some rep.

NW CTC
02-12-2008, 07:25 PM
Thanks Merc. You said it. Here's some rep.

Ditto, Gesualdo. Mercwyn stated it in a nutshell.

As to the statement that "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects" my response is 'says who???' I don't know a single American who expects this sort of treatment when returning to their native land. If this is what DHS truly believes then they are completely out of touch with their 'customers' as well as American values and on the verge of being totally out of control. I find their attitude chilling and depressing.

Ned
02-13-2008, 12:56 AM
I have been waiting for someone to say this.

I agree with you completely.

I sent you some rep.

Ditto, Gesualdo. Mercwyn stated it in a nutshell.

As to the statement that "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects" my response is 'says who???' I don't know a single American who expects this sort of treatment when returning to their native land. If this is what DHS truly believes then they are completely out of touch with their 'customers' as well as American values and on the verge of being totally out of control. I find their attitude chilling and depressing.

NW CTC
02-13-2008, 01:52 AM
Thank you, Ned. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in thinking this way. - Julie

SWABoeing737
02-13-2008, 07:00 PM
If they're physically searching my laptop to make sure there aren't any explosives in it, then I'm okay with that. But as far as taking my laptop (which I know for a businessperson is like Chinese water torture) to search the hard drive just because my belt set off the metal detector, that I strongly oppose.

Gesualdo
02-15-2008, 12:54 PM
This just reinforces my notion that one should NEVER take a laptop on a plane without making two backups, one of which stays behind at home. Better that backup should be on a networked drive that can be accessed from anywhere. I've heard of graduate students having laptops confiscated (also never to be returned) that contained dissertations and research. Can you imagine trying to rewrite or regather several years' worth of research? When I was in grad school, I backed up DAILY. Now, it's more like semi-annually, or whenever I do something significant.

Ned
02-15-2008, 01:21 PM
Very smart G. I back up my laptop before leaving on a trip, and don't have sensitive information on it. I connect via VPN to the office to get sensitive info when needed, plus upload to the office work done while away.

At the same time, my entire drive is encrypted and password protected.

This just reinforces my notion that one should NEVER take a laptop on a plane without making two backups, one of which stays behind at home. Better that backup should be on a networked drive that can be accessed from anywhere. I've heard of graduate students having laptops confiscated (also never to be returned) that contained dissertations and research. Can you imagine trying to rewrite or regather several years' worth of research? When I was in grad school, I backed up DAILY. Now, it's more like semi-annually, or whenever I do something significant.

mapsmith
05-05-2008, 11:00 PM
Pertinent Phrase.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified (http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR) 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

mapsmith
05-05-2008, 11:01 PM
As an edit to the previous post. Print it out and hand it to the Customs or TSA Agent that demands the "papers and Effects" Even the Homeland Security Enabling act or even the Patriot Act does not preclude the 4th Amendment.

chekara
07-29-2008, 08:05 PM
An article by CNN, Suit: Airport searches of laptops, other devices intrusive (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/02/11/laptop.searches/index.html), discusses Homeland Security inspections of laptops, BlackBerries, and MP3 players, without probable cause, and any explanation to the owner, which happen routinely at US entry ports, which include lengthy questioning and intrusive searches, and agents forcing owners to give them access to password-protected, confidential information including personal banking records.

Personally, forgetting for a moment I believe I don't leave my Constitutional rights at home when I leave the country, I have other problems with these searches:

Homeland Security refuses to reveal to the public what policies and procedures exist governing their questioning and searches of individuals at the nation's ports of entry.
I am concerned about the security of personal and business information obtained by customs. Homeland Security refuses to reveal how they handle the information they retrieve.
In many cases, Homeland Security has confiscated and never returned the devices.

They don't permit the owners to retrieve data from the devices which don't exist anywhere else and are vital to the owner.
They don't have a procedure for the owners to petition to retrieve the device or information located on it.
They don't have a procedure for the owners to find out the disposition of the devices, or to require to government to destroy the devices, to protect the information, if necessary.
They refuse to reveal how the information taken from the device is used and/or stored.



So, do you think, "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects," or perhaps do you think Homeland Security should have to obey the laws of the land, starting with the Constitution.

I'm tired of being told what kind of security I expect, while I have to remove more clothes and get less rights.

I want more rights to keep my clothes on. Considering all our e-mails and phone calls are scanned, what's the point of taking laptops from students? Were they Democrats?

Having had Republicans in office, the statement, "This is the kind of scrutiny the American public expects" makes sense.Just because I've come to expect it, doesn't mean I want it.